Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers

WikiProject Composers

Discussion

Draft:Thanasis Deligiannis

As I am working on a new article for another composer in the Netherlands, the article for Thanasis Deligiannis has been waiting for about 8 weeks for a review. Would a reviewer help speeding it up? Kamien Case (talk) 15:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kamien Case, I do not have time to formally reveiew, but there are a lot of formatting errors that should be adjusted:

Opening name should be bolded (use tripple quotes ''' on both sides of the name).
Do not include birthplace in the opening parentheses.
Wikipedia articles always work in a chronological fashion
- The career section should be in opposite order, starting with older events, ending with recent
- The works list should also be in chronological order
Publication titles should be italicized
Everything should be cited. Lines such as "Deligiannis has been active as a transdisciplinary artist, director, composer, sound designer and performer in Europe, Asia and North America." are not cited at the moment.
Citations should always be after punctuation
- citations are generally at the end of sentences, so the Goebbels citation should be later in the sentence. This happens elsewhere
Do not use hyphens between date ranges, use en dashes (–)
"transdisciplinary artist" is a vague term that does not inform readers. Prioritize his chief reknown, is he better known as a composer or stage director? One of those titles should take priority.
Your citations all need to have a website or publisher listed
Discogs is not a reliable source
The difference between the biography and career sections is not clear. It would be better to interweave them
Give a translated title for ref names in Greek (in {{cite web}} use trans-title=)

This is not exhaustive, but just a sampling of issues. You need to look at other, more polished, Wikipedia articles as models. If you fix these kinds of things, reviewers will be more willing to review this article. Since it is currently missing some basic standards, its off-putting for potential reviewers. Aza24 (talk) 01:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I'll work on your points and polish the article. Kamien Case (talk) 12:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I was following Enno Poppe's wikipedia article as a guide, which has lots of things reversed from what you write. I will follow your directions. Kamien Case (talk) 12:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've done most of the work I believe. The only way to cite the sentence "Deligiannis has been active as a transdisciplinary artist, director, composer, sound designer and performer in Europe, Asia and North America." would be to either cite his website's calendar (would that be ok though?) or find citations of presentations in various cities/festivals (but wouldn't that be too much?).

I've been checking articles like Enno Poppe's, Jennifer Walshe's, Yannis Kyriakides' etc, they all follow a different way of organising the information.

Once again, thank you for the directions. Kamien Case (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Kamien Case, the articles you mention as examples are not exactly correct either, per say. They establish notability for their subjects, but have not been subjected to any review. For models look at WP:Featured articles or WP:Good articles. See Wikipedia:Good articles/Music#Performers, composers, and other music-related people for instance.

Occupation titles are always tricky to cite. I see that this source [1] gives "Greek composer and theater maker". You might combine that with his personal declaration of transdisciplinary artist on his website. For the lead (intro) then, maybe "Greek composer and theater makerself, self-described as a transdisciplinary artist." would work better.

Also, he is mentioned in this book [2] which seems like a high-quality reference worth using. Aza24 (talk) 22:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Aza24. Thank you very much for the suggestions. I’m trying to check the second link (the book) you mention but I get an error when clicking on it. Could you please check if the link is correct?

I’m trying to see what’s the most updated way the artist is referred like, checking on the same website you found, on a more recent article Deligiannis is mentioned as a “transdisciplinary artist, director and composer”. If I check a few of his pieces I see compositions, staged works, and the work at Venice Art Biennale being the most recent one, mentioned as an “interdisciplinary” work. Will spend more time on further researching references throughout the internet. Kamien Case (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Kamien Case, sorry about that—try [3]. Aza24 (talk) 04:24, 21 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24 thank you for the link. I couldn't find the mention, but I searched the collaboration mentioned in the publication and added a couple of sentences in his bio about it. Reading more and checking most of the works I see a mix of approaches. E.g. his last music composition seems to be in 2021, the works 2021-2024 are a mix of performance/performative installations.[4] I read more on the theatre and archeology page GRIDS he's collaborating with (co-devising, performing, also writing music),[5] and checked his teaching position at the Conservatory of Amsterdam, which is listed as "transdisciplinary approaches, individual coaching".[6] If there are no other corrections, I would try to get a reviewer to have a look. Kamien Case (talk) 09:03, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Aza24, I'm trying to think of what else I could do to improve the article or if it's ready to be reviewed. I'm reading quite a few articles to get more ideas, but I see that quite a few of them have their own issues. I'm working on another article at the same time, but I feel like I have to wait before submitting it and see how this one goes. Kamien Case (talk) 18:19, 14 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see the article just got declined because "the sources are too trivial to establish notability". I wonder what else I could do. E.g. I've now added a citation by La Biennale di Venezia [7] about his participation at the Venice Biennale, next to e-flux citation [8] (e-flux is the most important portal in the fine arts world). I have added citations by the Conservatorium van Amsterdam (which is part of the Amsterdam University for the Arts)[9] and by the Onassis Culture, as well as citations about his involvement in records and publications.

What I can't find is important citations for his life, next to a couple of citations by university archival websites in Greek. Another thing I could maybe do is to check online any references to his collaboration with important ensembles. But then, who's deciding what is an important ensemble - e.g. in the Netherlands or Greece - or in Europe in general. What if the reviewer isn't specialised in music (or new music) or the fine arts? According to my understanding, only for the fact that Deligiannis has been a featured artist at the Venice Biennale there should be an article, as the artists selected at the national pavilions are regarded as national participations in the most important arts biennale globally. I'm a bit stuck about how to continue - and that affects the next articles I'm planning to submit.

If you have any tips, they would be of great help. Kamien Case (talk) 13:45, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There's something that's not clear to me: what do we do with sources that are available with a subscription? E.g. from important newspapers or magazines? Kamien Case (talk) 19:25, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kamien Case, I think you are approaching this from slightly the wrong direction, one which would explain the declined submissions. Rather than looking for more and more sources to include different festival mentions or different accomplishments, you need to be narrowing sources down. That is, you should be seeking a nice 3–4 sources which discuss him in depth, as their main topic, and reference heavily from those sources.

At the moment, I see that none of your references are used more than once: this is usual representative of collection of passing mentions, and not an example of the above—a handful of sources, which are extensively used. You might already have some of these sources, but you're not proving it to reviewers. A good article can be written with less than 10 sources, if they're used to their fullest extent. Aza24 (talk) 23:19, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot @Aza24, your tips have been the most useful throughout my efforts of improving this article. I'll try to find time to re-organise things. You're right, I'm stack because I'm approaching it differently. I also didn't expect this would take so much effort. To be continued... Kamien Case (talk) 11:59, 22 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24 I got this comment, what's your take on it? I thought it's common practice on composers' pages to have their work listed (like Enno Poppe, Jennifer Walshe etc.).

WP:Copyvio rev-del requested: The "Works section and associated subjections are word-for-word copyright violations WP:COPYVIO from this website: [1]. The only difference is that the items are reverse chronological. I couldn't figure out how to use the new revdel-copyvio tool since the material is from the very first edit of the draft and I didn't want to delete the entire draft. If an admin is monitoring this, it's just the Works portion that needs revdel. Netherzone (talk) 01:06, 23 February 2025 (UTC) Kamien Case (talk) 15:54, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kamien Case, the problem is that the Works section is copied word for word from his website:[10]. I'd suggest choosing a selection of the five-or-so best known (and most highly cited) works and putting the content into prose form. The draft will then read less like a resume and more like encyclopedic prose. (BTW, I would appreciate it if you would please not copy my entire wiki-linked signature, because it's confusing which person wrote what, and it almost looks like multiple or shared accounts have signed. You can just use my name to say "Netherzone wrote...".) Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 16:11, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Netherzone excuses for copying your wiki-linked signature, I missed deleting it before hitting the Reply button. If you have time, could you please let me know what is the difference with these two articles in the Works section, they were my guide: Enno Poppe and Jennifer Walshe. As I wrote to @Aza24, adding a works section (as a list) seems to be common practice for contemporary music composers' articles on Wikipedia. I see it on almost every composer's article I read. Kamien Case (talk) 14:30, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Kamien Case, I will have a look at those articles when I find the time. The problem with your draft, that requires immediate attention and modification, is that the copyright tool available on WP finds that your draft is 70.8% Copyright Violation: [11] and [12]. It is the content that is the big problem because you copy and pasted it. Netherzone (talk) 14:46, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I will have a look at that then, rephrasing or deleting things. I have been advised to add quotes of reviews, is this counted in to this percentage? Kamien Case (talk) 18:11, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Kamien Case, quotes from reviews are fine to include, as long as they are in quotation marks are or formatted as a block quote and have a citation associated with the quote. I'm pretty sure there is a limit on the number of words. You can find more info here: WP:Quotations, and they should follow our guidelines for neutral point of view, meaning they should be balanced and not skewed towards all positive or all negative. See: WP:Quotations and neutrality. If you have a conflict of interest (if you are the artist themself, or work for/with them or know them personally or professionally or have a financial connection, then you have a COI). If so, you will need to pay special attention to WP's COI guidelines. For more information on COI editors, see and follow the guidelines at WP:COI. I also want to say that the reason why WP has all these guidelines and policies is not to discourage people from editing, it's to maintain the integrity of the encyclopedia. Please let me or others know if you have any more questions. I'm happy to help out. Netherzone (talk) 22:04, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Should the biographical infoboxes guideline be deleted/rewritten at this point?

I support this idea for a few reasons:

It’s extremely outdated. The guideline was based on the situation over a decade ago, and at the very least there is certainly no longer a broad consensus to avoid them entirely.
wp:opera has already done it and has been doing perfectly well without it for ~6 years.
It’s needlessly inflammatory, staking out Wp:composers and its topic are as anti-infobox and taking sides in an irrelevant content debate that’s mostly a matter of personal preference. People join this project because they love classical music, not because they have a dog in a fight over informational summary boxes.

I don’t know what, if anything, should be included in a new guideline but I hope you’ll agree that the current one is a relic from another era that no longer reflects the current situation. Dronebogus (talk) 13:05, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No. Johnbod (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your clearly well-thought-out and nuanced opinion. Dronebogus (talk) 19:18, 9 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I point at a composer today, as the main page does. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Joseph Abaco#Requested move 9 February 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Joseph Abaco#Requested move 9 February 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPath^talk 12:33, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]